25 comments on “Open letter to physical medium Kai Mügge

  1. Hi Piero,

    A very well-written and heartfelt letter, I think…I will be eager to see if Kai responds to this, but I wonder, especially in light that the Facebook group, which he and his wife belong to apparently, spewed so much venom at you for daring to “review” the two articles (neither of which I found as being so absolutely “pro” and “con”, but both stating concerns, and containing suggestions for further controlled studies).

    I don’t have your credentials (or, for that matter, many “credentials” at all, except that I feel I’m reasonably intelligent and rational, balanced by a good bit of passion and emotion!), but I fully empathize w/ your pain, and the earnestness of your search, for I am searching as well, as to the question of “survival” (I’ve been concerned w/ “mortality” since age six!) My main areas of study are a little different, mainly NDEs, although I’ve read many accounts of various forms of mediumship, mostly from earlier times. Until the “Felix Experimental Group”, the most recent one I’d read of was, of course, The Scole Group; I had thought, until encountering these more recent reports, that Mediumship had “faded into obscure history”. Maybe (and probably) there are many more “circles” practicing “out there”, but most are remaining quiet, in the face of the this seemingly pitched “battle” between the believers and the pseudoskeptics.

    My own intuition and reason tells me (plus the mountains of evidence for survival available for review) that, indeed, some aspect of our selves does survive physical demise, and that we’ve clearly left behind the “small box” of materialism (although the way many folks, esp. it seems the younger, than myself, generations carry on, it still is “alive and kicking”!) I also believe that Reality is such a vast realm that we can only catch glimpses, and form incomplete models, while in Human form.

    You may be interested in another blog I’ve been following; a fellow by the name of Frank DeMarco (“I of My Own Knowledge…”), who used to run Hampton Roads publishing here in the States, and has written several books, detailing his experiences in Consciousness exploration at The Monroe Institute, plus his “Intuitively Linked Communications” with his Greater Self (he calls them “The Guys Upstairs”). Currently, he’s communicating with a deceased friend of his, “R.”, who was a Psychologist/Scientist in her earth-life. She’s open to questions, posed by readers, and I’ve found her answers very insightful; I’ve had a couple of questions myself for her. So far as I know, she hasn’t been asked about Mediumship; I think many of Frank’s/”R.’s” readers would be interested to learn what she has to say about it. You may try asking any questions, on Frank’s blog, concerning this, and you could likely pose a more intelligent question than I could!

    Thanks as always; keep up the good work!

    Craig

  2. I have been interested in and investigating psi phenomena and abilities for over four decades. Survival remains for me one of the great mysteries. I have studied many mediums during that time, most of them mental mediums. As a member of the mystery arts community since 1958, I also bring a certain natural skepticism to the table. I have learned that true objectivity is quite difficult and indeed very rare in humans, such is our intense desire to survive physically, emotionally and intellectually. When I first heard of Mugge’s D-Lite trickery I was not surprised. I had in fact corresponded with Braude about nine months earlier advising him on things to look out for in these investigations. Among these things were surreptitious lighting devices.

    My experience however tells me that indeed life and reality are more complicated than most cynics and skeptics would have us believe. I have found many examples where individuals otherwise gifted have resorted to trickery. Sometimes this has been understandable, such as when the demands of the curious exceed the capacities of the individual. But the point is that it does happen in the real world and we must simply accept that fact. At the same time, the considerable legitimate evidence for survival must be addressed responsibly and not be swept away by uninformed critics.

  3. Great letter, couldn’t have said it better myself! Was the letter sent directly to Kai Mugge as well? If so I would look forward to his response if he indeed does respond. Only one part of the letter I didn’t agree with was the last couple of sentences, as I feel despite Kai and other mediums or people in other fields being found to cheat on occasion, there is still an ocean of valid, credible evidence out there to prove the survival hypothesis for me. So as disappointed as I am as well over the D-light incident, it still hasn’t changed my view!
    Chris

  4. Dr Parisetti, excuse my english please.
    It would have been much easier if you had asked me directly instead of posting letters i stumbled upon purely by chance. I gave myself three years down to my scrotum for unquestionable and controlled experiments Braude called without reluctance ‘historical’ before Nahm started to theorize about something he considered an electrical device in one of the very first deep trance sessions we ever gave publicly. It s still a theory about an incident not part of the strict investigation and i say its not a dlite and that things sometimes can look questionable! One will never come to a conclusive feeling in regards to this under these circumstances.
    So forget the past!
    Cause there is a MUCH easier way that will free you from all your doubts and heavy thoughts. It is so easy!
    It is apparent, obvious, persuasive and strong, it happens in Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Germany, Australia, States, Switzerland, Austria and everywhere where i sit down, dim the lights and where the sitters purposefully support the mediumistic exercise with a natural openness! The exceptionally strong controls (precheck strip search, holding four limbs/hands-on control during all phenomenal sections, super control for validating control-persons control) satisfy the common sense strongly, the seance has a basical ‘signature’ of genuineness and truthfulness!
    Enough magicians we had invited have all confirmed: No modi operandi of trickery!
    Braude and Nahm play no role because they are past and it happens today and tomorrow and can be observed by everybody who is willing and open minded to come and sit!
    Come and sit and your eyes and heart will see clearly!
    Respectfully
    kai

    • Dear Kai,

      First of all, I very much appreciate your taking the time to share your thoughts following my “open letter”.

      Secondly, since I took the liberty of addressing you simply as Kai, please do the same and call me Piero.

      Thirdly, you are absolutely right. I should have looked up your address and sent you a copy of my letter. Not having done so is indelicate, and I apologise.

      Now, in terms of substance I don’t really have much to offer more than what I said in my two blog articles and in the letter itself. Please remember that I am not in the business of “proving” the afterlife or “disproving” your mediumship. I am in the business of understanding. As I wrote in the both the articles and the letter, my understanding tells me that you are at the centre of many extraordinary phenomena, and the great majority of such phenomena are inexplicable. I also said that, in the great tradition of mediumship, such extraordinary phenomena can be seen as evidence for survival of personality of bodily death. I personally believe so. However, based on the Nahm article and on pictures publicly available on the internet, my understanding also tells me that you have employed tricks on one occasion. This is what my reason and whatever intelligence I have tells me. I cannot “undo” that understanding, even if I would like to believe otherwise.

      I am sure that if I were to participate in one of your séances, I would be astonished by the phenomena and impressed by the atmosphere/energy created with the participants, just as anybody else has been. This would probably be a life-changing experience; I neither doubt nor challenge that. But I cannot simply ignore or discount the one instance of trickery. The fact that it is “in the past” doesn’t make things any easier for me as I try to understand.

      Please also notice that I carefully avoid any judgment on you as a person or your integrity. I don’t like to do that with anyone, as I don’t feel entitled to be a judge. Moreover, I don’t know you personally, and I don’t like making moral conjectures based on anecdotes and stories told by others. Finally, I don’t think anybody stands to gain by calling someone a “cheat” or a “fraud”. The many inexplicable phenomena speak for themselves, as does the one publicly available piece of evidence for conjuror tricks: reality is indeed very complex and generalising labels are useless. I strongly urge the readers of my blog to understand such complexity and to avoid judgment.

      Warm regards to you.

      Piero

  5. After decades of studying paranormal phenomena – after experiencing many such phenomena myself – I am no nearer to understanding what’s going on than I was to start with. And I don’t think sitting with a medium and watching even more paranormal phenomena will make the slightest difference.

    I am also reminded of an experiment by physicist Puharich in the 1950s. He filled a hired theater with an audience and invited an Indian fakir to demonstrate the Indian rope trick. A small boy with the fakir climbed the rope the fakir had thrown into the air. Dismembered parts of the boy fell to the ground. The fakir put them in a basket and climbed the rope with it and came back down with the boy – intact. The audience agreed that that’s what they all saw. Puharich say it too. Then he played the video of the event. The fakir threw a rope into the air. The rope immediately fell down. And the fakir and the boy stood motionless by the rope for the duration of the performance.

    And Kai thinks that if I watch him performing I’ll find it convincing!

  6. John, that story is apocryphal, and while certainly not being outside the bounds of psi functioning as we know it, demonstrates a potency beyond even that of the greatest subjects of our time save Sai Baba, if his feats, too, are to be taken at face value.

  7. I have researched the evidence of the afterlife for the past two years and admire all the great work you do. It has helped me through my grief. Having recently attended a well known physical mediums seance, believing that it would be evidential proof, I was totally dissappointed, it seemed like a magicians performance in the dark, I too wanted to believe it was true. I do think that all these physical mediums that are performing around the world today are linked with each other, including the scole investigation and some famous mental mediums in the world. One persons dishonesty brings it all into question and the loosers are people who are grieving who had been given such hope and brave and courageous scientists and people the medical profession who tried to advance research into this area. There are many ways to make money in the world but preying on someones grief must be one of the most despicable. quite the opposite of the spiritual purpose which is used as a mask. However I believe there are so many wonderous and unexplainable happenings in our universe and so many direct personal experiences that dishonest people will always eventually be outed and the only one they are fooling is themselves. Keep up the good work and thank you for your time

    • Dear Ellen,

      Thank you so much for writing and for sharing your experience with all of us. On the one hand – as I have previously written – I totally agree with you: the episodes of fraud make it so much more difficult for the grieving people to accept the reality of survival. On the other, though, I also think that we have to be strong and not give in to the temptation of simple explanations. It’s like going to the supermarket and finding at one rotten apple in most of the apple bags on the shelves. That’s bad enough, but it would be much, mouch worse to stop eating apples altogether, for apples taste good (interest in learning about life after life) and are very good for us (help in the grief recovery process).

      I am about to write the next blog post, sharing information about further strong laboratory evidence for mediumistic communication.

      Thank you again and looking forward to staying in touch.

      Piero

  8. Yes I agree with you, I think I may have been too harsh and simplistic in my email, I do believe some people have special gifts or an extrasensory perception that the majority of people do not have, maybe these people started out with the best of intentions but pressure to make a living or pressure to perform hijacked that gift so if these people were funded and allowed to be scientifically studied in a positive way society would benefit as a whole, after all we fund athletes, medicine musicians etc. what could be more important than showing life continues, It would also eliminate the need for fraud and defensive behaviour on both sides to a certain extent. Again I admire you work and honesty, it is a shame that governments do not invest in this area of research as it would alleviate so much suffering in the world,

  9. First, about me.

    My wife and me are now running successfully a Thai massage and cosmetic practise for meanwhile 7 years with our 5 workers. I was a Modern Spiritualist who has left the fold for Mormonism.

    I have never attended a seance and never will since I have been banned by all physical mediums for my steadfast stand against fraud. Assassination by pen 🙂

    Kai has claimed that aliens help produce his ultranormal effects. If, though, the phenomena are touted as being caused by alien involvement – but without any evidence of survival and identity – then it’s not mediumship at all. It’s extraterrestrial phenomenalism. Those experiencing ET phenomena have to decide for themselves whether they have received what they paid for. We can do little other than try to help anyone who comes seeking better understanding – before or after a sitting. I know this because I read a lot.

    To Kai: Get the aliens out of the seance room, leave good deeds and acts to spirit.

  10. Dear Piero, there´s no moral issue to call a cheater by his name. It´s more a moral issue not to do so.
    This is not judging, this is debunking. Unexplainable “phenomenas” are not a prove for the spirit world at all. They maybe are there to tighten one´s awareness what is real and what is faked.
    I have much more better unexplainable “phenomenas” than Mügge performs listed on my blog http://last-exit-felixcircle.blogspot.de/. But they are all from really good magicians. What if they would suddenly say, these are proves for spirit, too?
    Because i´ve published the photos showing Mügge cheating and because i made a video showing how he fakes “Hans Bender”, Mügge has written this unbelievable hate blog against me, which had to be deleted by google, because it´s criminal.
    You can read and see all this on my blog. He tries to intimidate his critics in doing rude and violate things like this. He demasks himself.
    The sensefree post above from a “mac” looks much like Mügge´s handwriting, too. The first sentence is a 1:1 copy of a statement i´ve made in the forum “spititualismlink”, where more people discuss Mügge´s dishonorable activities. People like Mügge smudging the good and honest work of honorable men and women like you, who are dedicated to do this work. Thank you for that!

    • Dear Hermann,
      Thank you for your comments. Much as I respect your position, however, I cannot fully agree with you. As I have made clear from my articles I, as an external observer who have not participated in the sittings, can only conclude that a) many phenomena are produced under strictly controlled conditions, which – for me – makes the fraud hypothesis untenable; and b) on at least one occasion – as documented by you – Kai has resorted to using tricks when not controlled. Perhaps the magicians you refer to should invite Prof Braude and others, subject themselves to the same controls, and if they manage to produce the same effects, then we’ll have learnt something really, really important. I am also really sorry that the personal relationship between you and Kai has deteriorated so much. I understand what kind of emotions can be involved in this, but I believe that this kind of personal acrimony serves no purpose, and is in fact a big obstacle to our collective understanding. I believe that such understanding can only come from the seance room, and not from blogs and discussion boards. Facts such as the Braude/Nahm investigation and your pictures speak for themselves, and attacks and name calling – from all sides – is frankly depressing. Thankyou again and warm regards.

  11. Dear Piero,
    thank you for your reply. With every respect to your position and understanding from which point of view you are coming from, concluding from outside without having being involved in this case is like a war correspondent reporting from home. 😉
    The strictly controlled conditions are just as strict as the alleged medium allows. So they are not worse a penny. Real control conditions like thermic cameras or wearing boxing gloves as demanded from different people from different sides are strictly refused with fancy excuses.
    Best wishes, Hermann

  12. Dear Pierro,
    let me just kindly add, that the fraud with the red flying prop has taken place at least at five occasions, 2 x in Basel, 2 x in Koblenz and 1 x in Hanau, as well as at a few “private” sittings. One can read this in Dr. Nahm´s well reaearched report on page 35: http://www.anomalistik.de/images/stories/pdf/sdm/sdm-2014-08-nahm.pdf
    One should not get caught in the trap, that one can´t explain Mügge´s other trickery. Be assured, there will be a “normal” explanation to this. Kai Mügge is not a medium. I know it´s disappointing, but there aren´t any answers to life after death given by Mügge´s show.
    As i´ve already mentioned, there are much more mind-boggling tricks out there in bright light. Just google “dynamo_magician” and you´ll enter a new world of what is possible in trickery already nowadays. Or do you ever have seen someone walking over the Thames in London at bright light?
    But much more important: have you ever considered, what the debunked red prop flight actually means?
    It shows, that Mügge is not in trance, because he has much more important things to do (concentrate on cheating) and that the whole story of the alleged trance personality “Hans Bender” including the alleged “ectoplasm expositions” is a complete farce, too. I will post a few more information on my blog soon.

  13. Dear Piero,
    i really like your open letter, but i disagree with your conclusion, that a single D´Lite incident could take away the belief of many thousands grieving people. Fraudulent actions in the long term don´t have the power to do this!
    The Mügge case and others didn´t take away my belief, so it won´t take away the belief of others, too – I hope. I have been deeply involved in this case like hardly anyone else, so please believe me, what i´m talking about. And i didn´t say, that the last four years were easy.
    But i´ve learned much. First of all i´ve learned, that the sceptics have a right of existence, too. Yes, even if they are with a very high probability wrong in what they say, that there comes nothing after the physical death, they nevertheless have the right to claim this. And they do a good job debunking fraudulent people. Unfortunatly there are and were too much fraudulent people out there!
    Their work helped me to keep my “belief in mankind”. In 2011 I couldn´t prove Mügge´s fraud and hardly anyone believed me. Mügge defamed me and went on abusing the people´s trust.
    Today it´s different. The proves are on the table. I´ve added another two pictures on my blog, where you can see the fake “ectoplasm” lying on the floor while Mügge is performing his D´light trick.
    But what happens? Not much. The cheating goes on. As long as they can make money with it, they will continue. And when Mügge will be finally stopped, the next cheater is waiting already to perform.
    We have to live with it, if we like it or not, that people like him and other members of the syndicate don´t care about the grieving of others, but moreover try to gain unethical profits out of it.
    I can´t change people´s belief in sth. even it´s proved to be fraudulent. But i can stand up and fight it, in order that the rotten apple – to use your picture – doesn´t affect more healthy apples. But i can´t do more. I can´t change the world. I can only keep my head up. And if the sceptics help me partly on my way, why not?
    You´ve made the experience to be accused being a sceptic from people you´ve never thought about they could do. You´ve just asked questions. Although this must be a painful experience, could these “believers” take your belief?
    Not all “sceptics” are bad and not all “mediums” are truthful. It would be good to overcome this black and white paradigm for both sides.

    • Herman, thanks for your repeated communications. You’ve made your points very clearly a number of times, and I am not sure what this debate has to gain to state them again and again. An external observer could be excused for thinking that your sole mission in life at the moment is to convince the world that Kai Mugge is a fraud… There is something, however, that I am not entirely sure about. Perhaps you have said it but it has not registered with me, and I would like to ask you to answer a direct question: do you think that ALL phenomena produced in the Felix circle are produced by fraud? I mean ALL. Are you convinced that NO genuine or at least unexplainable phenomena have EVER been produced? Please answer with a simple yes or no. Thank you again.

  14. Piero,You want an easy yes or no, but you your question is already unfortunatly unclear. You ask for “genuine” phenomena or for “unexplainable” phenomena?
    Though, my easy answer: Until today, in the felixcircle, there are only some unresolved tricks, nothing more.
    And hey, i´m very aware, that there are more things in life than this case. But nevertheless: thank you! Have a nice day.

  15. Dear Piero,
    a “No” could soften the cheating, Kai Mügge commits.
    The table tilting isn´t necessarily faked, but this isn´t an evidence for spirit. If, it´s more likely to be negative energies working with and through the drug aura of this man more than anything else.
    I´ve never believed to be confronted with these energies, because until I have met this circle I´ve only made good or better to say great experiences with spirit. Probably that was my lesson I had to learn. In the end i have to thank Kai Mügge for that? Hm…
    In your book “Adventures in psychical research” you write about your anger with the sceptics, which i can understand very well. I feel much the same concerning the powerlessness to the fact, that this cheating story is still going on. Hard stuff to accept. But obviously unavoidable. Best wishes, Hermann

  16. Dear Piero, thank you for your insightful words. Stephen’s paper was comprehensive and detailed and demonstrates why it’s so important to have such intensive controls. As a psychic of 20 years and researcher as well I understand how the mandates of research protocols can get in the way of the phenomenon. However, it seems as if the model of using cabnets and intense darkness just is outdated. We know phenomenon can occur in natural settings under bright light conditions from poltergeist type cases and many non seance and personal experiences. I see no reason why researchers can’t set up a lab filled with 1000 cameras if they so choose. Ask any paranormal investigator of which there are hundreds and they will tell you at least these days spirits make use of the energy of technology. Stephen traveled a long way and should have been met with his requirements met as promised beforehand, if Kai and his group truly wanted to be part of a legitimate study. If that meant no phenomenon or weaker so be it. What id say to Kai, with very much judgement is if Stephen misinterpreted what you said or did I’m very sorry for you. But if you once, just once, used a trick in a seance you and who ever else did this under a guise did tremendous damage to not just whoever was there and now holds false beliefs but to all of us who have made this our life’s work or even wants to just believe. I have recently become aware of others using trickery in seances and I say the same to them, a single act of diminishes thousands of people’s efforts from other mediums and psychics and researchers. Tricks are lies, they are fraudulent unless a person knows it a trick and should be punished severely as the criminals they are. People who do this are trying to justify their behavior with the idea they brought meaning to someone else. The truth is they want to steal people’s money (who wouldn’t come if they thought it wasn’t real) and to be seen as more special then they are. There are no mediums, or psychics or any person in any field who always can do their best in any job. Would it be ok if sports figures performed a trick to increase their stats or win a game when they are not able to perform their duties? No. I don’t care if spectators travel scross country only to discover a medium is too tired or just cant produce anything. That’s the nature of this phenomenon and if you asked them would you prefer to show up and have nothing happen vs fantastic displays that are just tricks, I bet they all would say honesty is of the utmost importance. When a medium fakes anything it hurts the rest of us and sets humanity backwards. Moving forward seances need to be done differently. Get a new model that starts with surveillance materials first. I don’t but for a second that this phenomenon can’t happen in a well designed lab. Finally I’ll say that if ecoplasma is real, it’s got to be happening within the general population as all our abilities do. There has to be a way to see it more because I know a lot of people spontaneously channel without awareness so they must be leaking this very unattractive looking substance if it is real.

    • All extremely intersting comments, Debra – thank you very much! You evidently have strong and clear opinions on these subjects, based, I imagine, on your own experience. I will not dispute that, but I must admit that there is a part of me who takes certain “historical” requirements such as darkness as a “necessary evil”. Don’t ask me to justify that, or to explain… In a way, I take this as one of the many maddening, incomprehensible pieces of the puzzle. As I tried to concey in my open letter, i find myself in a situation of cognitive dissonance, with a part of me wanting to go down the way of “it’s all trickery”, and another part saying “hang on a minute… have you looked at the controls, even with the darkness and all?”. Anyhow, thanks again for your contribution – it would be interesting to know more about your own experiences.

  17. Dear Piero,
    The comments here plainly show that there is unresolved uncertainty about the reality of the mediumship phenomena. It is not easy to decide what is truly unexplainable. But this goes beyond the physical mediumship phenomena. Similar discussions about the nature of reality occur about the UFO phenomenon also. Back in 1975, Jacques Vallee proposed an hypothesis that there is a control system in place designed to change the myths we have about our reality. Recently, I expanded on this idea in my article at http://www.treurniet.ca/zetacom/mpd.htm. Basically, it seems that a certain level of uncertainty about such phenomena is maintained by a control system so that humanity can change its understanding of reality without descending into fear. We are to understand that the new reality based on consciousness has love as a central component. We cannot begin to accept this if we are in fear, and so the uncertainty is maintained by the control system. The uncertainty around Kai Muegge’s mediumship is an example of the control system in action. The point is to decide for oneself what is true and not on the statements of others, especially scientific institutions.

  18. hi Piero, thanks for this interesting article and discussion. This week-end I’ve been to a seance and my conclusion is that the whole seance leaves a lot of room for reasonable doubt. My take too is that I want to have an open mind and sincerely would love to see genuine phenomena, both to act as evidence but also for the more physiological sides of human life; what is the human body capable of?

    But my only conclusion after experiencing the seance is that it’s all subject to reasonable doubt. Often the attention to fraud is placed on the medium, but how about his wife who sat isolated besides the medium as a controller, but not being controlled or hold on to by a sitter herself. She also illustrated during the seance when a demonstration went wrong, that she was able in pitch black to move into the inside of the circle of sitters to correct something. She could do so because of the tape in front of Kai’s chair and the bucket in the middle of the circle, that was taped as well but only on one side – the side pointing towards Kai. In other words: there were clear markers in the room to move in pitch black.

    Everytime some ‘phenomena’ in black happened, Kai moved into the ‘cabinet’ i.e. moved out of the way for his wife to have an open entrance to the circle. And let’s us be aware as well that people singing create a perfect wall of sound that makes it very easy to orientate yourself. Her alibi is the suggestion that she sings the whole time, but, she also has a recorder with her which i saw her operate at the beginning of the seance.

    A medium myself, I experienced and felt the presence of spirit and the building of power. But, as my friends in the spirit world told me that they are ever present AND the energy build-up was simply the result of the group of sitters building the power.

    Another thing that I found very questionable is the ‘apportation’ or ‘materialisation’ of ‘objects’. The objects clearly fitted the orifices they came from, but why did the smallest came from his mouth? It would make more sense larger objects would come from the mouth, but instead the smallest ones came from his mouth enabling him to talk without noticing anything being in his mouth prior.

    It ended with something that had to look like ectoplasm but it was a horrible bad static layer of cotton with 3 images fixed to it. He moved with his upper body to make it appear to be alive and using his fingers to move it. That was really the worst showcase and it felt very offense towards the world of spirit. It was a static, dead fabric and had no resemblace at all of similar accounts of such phenomena.

    I have been to many physical seances but this seance has left me with A LOT of reasonable doubt!

    my best, Edwin

  19. I have been to a seance in Hanau ,after many expierence with Psyhical mediums my curiosity was so big to see watch and learn how the chemist things works.
    On the end iam not convinces about the genuine mediumship and What he called Ectoplasma.
    What a real shame is is the amount of money what is beeing asked for a sitting .
    120€ euro is really ridiculous amount of money .
    Iam only saying that things what occur is not right as the total control parts are also parts we could not checked .
    Normally I will have a amazing energy after a seance but in this case it felt like I was over riding by a train so much tired.
    When I asked him how it work he did not give me a reasonable answer only that it’s is strictly personal how the trance going .
    I love trance I love physical seance with wonderfull medium but in this case I even doubt about the state of trance .
    I don’t feel the fact of love of the spirit world and iam pretty sure that the involvement of his wife is very strong .
    No checking what’s so ever ..
    Bad story .. advice not to go not in holland not in Germany not in basel

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